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tv   Charlie Rose  WHUT  October 5, 2013 3:00am-4:00am EDT

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deal with reagan. he wanted to help make himself a better arguer in public and so he brought me in to beat reagan and he won. for six years it was my job to be his consiglierry. >> rose: let's talk about what was in the book. the ronald reagan you know --. >> the ronald reagan i know and met firsthand in -- when he came up to give the state of the union address in 1982, you get to the second year, he walked into what was our ceremonial office right up the house floor and i walked in to welcome him there because it was the holding room and i said mr. president, welcome to the room where we plot against you. i really did. and he said "oh, no, not after 6:00. the speaker says we're friends after 6:00." and that friends after 6:00 thing was real between them. they tried to honor it. reagan called after 3:00 and said "after 6:00, can you rechange your watch?" because he wanted to talk about something personal. and they did try to be courteous and they fought like hell, like
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brothers on issues and they said terrible things but at the end of the argument it always came down to whether it was the tax bill in '82, the social security in '83, northern ireland, tax reform, russia, they always the end up being together. on some issue they found not common ground, they found a deal. >> rose: tell me about the tip o'neill you knew. >> three tip o'neills, like a lot of people are three people. one is santa claus. he is what everybody thought he was. a big liberal, look out for you if you've got a brother, somebody in trouble, he will be your best friend. especially you're a poor kid or old sick person. if you're some rich kid from harvard he hasn't got time for you. second, black irish which is that he resents a lot of people on the other side, resent of people who had it made, i think, and the third guy was the politician. the pure politician. i've always said the pure coalition between the politician and santa claus ran the show but the other black irish guy was
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there. he talked about cutting glass harvard when he was one of the townies and he would it is there with here iss and the overseer was like a simon hey from who would say "off your ass, o'neil. " and he talked about watching rich kids with their boater hats drinking champagne with complete impunity during prohibition. he said "they were rich, they could do anything they wanted to. i vowed my people would have that chance to go to that school. ". so that's a big part of it. it's class resentment to some extent that led him to do good things he did. >> rose: did he take john kennedy's seat? >> yes, but he had been speaker of the house in massachusetts. he created the democratic majority there for the first time in history. he was the first democratic spiker in massachusetts up in that legislature. he built the party, went all over the state, got people to run, got majority and became speaker up there before he was jack's guy, before he was jack's replacement. >> rose: just to mention what a great book you wrote about jack kennedy "elusive hero." tip, i assume, worshipped jack kennedy. >> he backed the other guy, mike devlin, he was with the townies
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against the new guy coming in but they got along very well after that. >> rose: what did he think of reagan? tip? >> boy, that is a tough one. that's one tough nut to crack. i know -- well, ron told me that his dad really was fond of tip and he talked about it around the house and there's some great quotes in there about tip about how -- in fact, i've got guys who worked for him who said, reagan would say -- every time we got mad at reagan he'd say "it's just tip being tip. his heart sbes this thing and you have to live with it." tip and reagan, i think he loved his company, he laughed his jokes, he loved the irish thing, he always had them to st. patrick's day dinners, went over there for birthday parties and toasts and champagne and he liked that part of him, the friendly part. where it broke off was when it came to cutting programs tip cared about. >> rose: he thought he was cruel and inhuman. >> yeah, he thought 50 years of taking care of people up in
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north cambridge with their problems with health care and education he thought reagan was cruel to cut this. but then he would always try to blame it on somebody around reagan and say "he hangs around the rich too much. it's his people around him making him do this." he never wanted to blame him personally but occasionally he'd say "he forgot where he came from." >> rose: suppose -- i know it's different circumstances but i'm going to make the question today. suppose ronald reagan was advising barack obama. suppose tip o'neill was advising john boehner? >> i think what obama could do-- and he hasn't done-- is spend a lot of time with members of congress. reagan -- >> rose: that's the story here. >> reagan respected congress. he respected that all those guys had been elected. he did respect them and he spent a lot of time with them. >> rose: he'd go right over their heads, wouldn't he? >> but he'd have tip to dinner, spend time with him, jim baker was the best there was. he would come to tip and give them heads up on what was coming next out of respect in the back room. "tell nobody about it." he'd go to his house. reagan was always sending signs
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of respect to tip, he knew they was co-branch of government and it was equal. none of this "i'm better than you." >> rose: back to the book, when you look at these two guys, are we simply looking at a time that will never again be? or is simply a question of the philosophy of the tea party members is one of, in their own minds, it's principle, principle principle? >> rose: >> well, i think there was a difference. i was looking at a tape of the "today" show april 10, 1985. bryant gumbel was still anchoring and he goes "at this hour a bipartisan delegation is meeting in moscow with the new soviet leader mikhail gorbachev. they are delivering a letter from the president expressing a desire to meet with him. the head of the delegation is speaker thomas. o'neil. he said it out affect or exceptionalism. this is normal. can you imagine today boehner representing obama? >> rose: no. >> it was just assumed to be the way our government worked together when it came to the big
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stuff. if superpower relations. in fact, tip made a point-- it's in the book-- about how when reagan was about to meet with gorbachev in geneva and in reykjavik he always made sure everything was good at home for him. no fights were going on. >> rose: as you have noted, you dedicate this to kirkwood alan and mike deaver, who's very close to certainly president reagan but also nancy reagan, very close as well. >> very close. and friends with tip. >> rose: and friends with tip. >> they became very friendly. we were friends, i was friends with duberstein. there were a lot of friends back and forth across that fight between o'neill and reagan. duberstein did wonderful favors for us back and forth. i wanted to see the king's funeral when the king of swaziland died and he was the guy with all the wives and i was in the peace corps and i said "i don't think that too many republicans want to go on an outback trip to swaziland for two days but i'd like to go because i worked there for two years." i called him up and they sent a message over "that's a one-way ticket, chris."
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>> rose: (laughs) >> little things like that. when kathy my wife was covering a g-7 meeting and i said "can i have a pass so i can go hang out with kay sni" he said sure. one time mitch snyder the homeless advocate was on the 50th day of his hunger strike and he and they said why don't we change the name of corpus christi to something else and they named it to the city of corpus christi and the guy was off his hunger strike. so this is all tip talking to reagan. so these things across the lines did work and talking to thatcher about northern ireland. he went to reagan and said "i will never make this public"-- somebody dug this up-- "but if you could get thatcher to give on northern ireland, i'll never forget it." and reagan went i know you have a problem with the i.r.a. and we're going to have a policy. and along came ultimately the good friday accord. >> rose: where do you put reagan
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as president? >> i think he'll make the top 12 or so. >> rose: top 10, maybe? >> i think he's up there with -- maybe a tad dehind ike. because i think ending the cold war and the way he did it and probably prevented another 10 or 20 years of stupid back and forth. >> rose: where would he be in the republican party today? moderate? >> well, you know, he was just as conservative as these guys. it wasn't about principle. look at him. he was a very pro-life kind of guy but in california when he was governor he signed pro-choice legislation. on social security he ended up raising the taxes wealthy have to pay. he ended up doing tax reform and reduced the race to 28, the top rate, but he equalize it had rate you get from earned income and capital income so he did some things in compromise they wouldn't normally do. but he always kept it going and said "get a half a loaf, get more later." everybody felt good about the way he did it. principles leading to compromise and the government continues. >> rose: you said i think in a
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great line that conviction to them was never a burden. >> i think conviction is what gets you up in the morning with these two guys and playing by the rules. it's almost the difference between them back in the '80s when i was working there and today. it's the difference between marcus and queensbury rules in boxing. mohammed ali was the best in fighting by the rules but extreme boxing they have today. gouge the guys eyes. that's sort of what politics is today. it's not marcus of queensbury. >> rose: what's the next book. >> well, let's see how this goes. >> rose: i have some suggestions for you. >> you always do. i hope when people look at the book and read it that they'll feel good about the country because in the end there is a warmth here right and left where it comes to the country and there's some wonderful scenes of reagan when he's practically dead after being shot and jim baker, again, a prince of a chief of staff, you know him, said "make sure tip's the first
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guy in to see reagan." and reagan's at the hospital, george washington university hospital, and he's really in bad shape. they were keeping it secret how bad he was. he had a bullet right here, he lost half his blood to internal bleeding and had jerry par, the secret service guy, hadn't gotten him to the hospital in three minutes he wouldn't have made it. tip comes in, he can't believe was what shape reagan is in and reagan's liaison guys from congress was there and he said tip went in, walked over to reagan's gurney or his bed, knelt down next to him on his knees on the ground and held his hands and these two old irish guys recited the 23rd psalm together "the lord is my shepherd." and he said "i have to leave now." and he kissed him on the forehead. the humanity of these guys is just wonderful. it's what separate ours country from other count wrez you can be human together. >> rose: and did baker do that, jim baker, because he thought it was important for a democrat to come there or did he do it because he thought tip would be
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good for ronnie? >> well, both were true because when reagan saw it was tip, he cheered up and said "thanks for coming, tip." it ge to you, i get verklempt talking about this stuff but he said "thanks for coming, tip." he was in weak shape. buff i think baker was really old school. he once said about the ethnic guys like rostenkowski and tip who grew up on the street, he ironically they were raised the same way he was, the upper class. respect for position, for people and religious. and it was like -- i think he thought it was very important for the country to be united after the assassination attempt and it was very important the opposite guy come in. also he was second in line to the presidency but he did respect the office. i think that what is g.o.p. today. the sense of respect the voter honeymoons. when's the last time you heard of a presidential honeymoon. the first six months in office tip said the guy has a right to an up or down vote on every one of his bills by august 1 because
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he got elected. today it's the like the first day you're in office the guy tries to knock your head off. >> rose: the book is called "tip and the gipper: when politics worked." repeat, when politics worked. back in a moment. >> this place isn't mine but i'm staying here for the weekend. not a hotel and i have never met my host before yesterday. how did i end up here? i booked it on nbc. once i knew he was coming to the city it took a quick search on airbnb. there's a wide variety of listing and searching is easy. just enter your date and browse pictures of available places. it's free to list so people all over the world are posting their places, making the possibilities endless. >> rose: nearby has revolutionized the travel accommodation industry since it was created five years ago. the service connects travelers with a hospitable place to stay for a night or longer. it's become one of the world's largest and most successful online marketplaces. tom friedman of the "new york
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times" writes the company's unique contribution is more difficult to measure. airbnb's real innovation is online rentals. it's about trust. they've created a framework of trust that has made tens of thousands of people comfortable renting rooms in their homes to strangers. joining me now are the company's three top executives and co-founders, they are chief product officer joe gebbia, chief technology officer nathan blecharczyk, and chief executive officer brian chesky. i am pleased to have each of them at this table to talk about what has become a phenomenon. so this starts with the three of you -- how does it start? >> this starts back at art school where brian and i met. >> rose: oh, that's right. >> we studied at the rhode island school of design and while we were on campus we had a chance to cut our teeth as entrepreneurs and when we graduated, brian moved to l.a., i moved to san francisco and quickly realized that san francisco is, in fact, a great place to launch a company so i invite brian to join me. >> he had been trying to get me to come up to san francisco for, like, two years. and i'm just like i have this
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life in l.a. >> rose: what was your life in l.a.? >> i was working as an industrial designer. we were both studying industrial design and i thought i wanted to make products and joe said "you have to come to san francisco." >> it was a hotbed for entrepreneurship. i knew if you put us in the same room together we could think of a big idea. so the first weekend brian moved up we both quit our jobs and we wanted to create a space to think about a big idea and little did we know that our landlord was preparing a letter for where you say the rent would go up 25% on our apartment and suddenly we were forced with a big, big math problem. >> he tells me, brian the rent is $1,150. well, i had a very clear problem. i had a thousand dollars in the bank. so we're here in san francisco and our apartment, like what are we going to do? it's going to be the shortest trip ever to san francisco and i'll be back in two weeks if w don't find a way to make rent. so joe and i are in the apartment, we don't have enough money to make rent. it turns out that weekend an
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international design conference happens to be coming to san francisco that weekend. all the hotels are sold out. i remember we're looking at each other and we're like -- that's where the idea came from. what if we turned our house into a bed and breakfast for this conference? i told joe, that's a great idea but we don't have beds. so >> so i go to the closet and pull out an air bed and we blow it up in the living room and start to realize we were on to something. we have a place for people to stay. then we start to think the experience of staying in our apartment, we could pick them up from the airport, we could offer breakfast in the morning and an idea was born. the air bed and breakfast. and that's where the name came from. we ended up hosting three people from around the world. a 55-year-old man from boston, a 45-year-old father of five from utah and a 30-year-old from india. this blew our minds. i told my mom about it and she's like "you're crazy. the art school education didn't work." but i told my late grandfather about the idea and he said "of
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course. i used to travel when i was a kid." we realized this is not necessarily a new idea and more importantly though we may have started renting our hone to make extra money we left with something deeper. we got to travel without leaving our home. we made life long relationships, the 30-year-old from india inviting us to his wedding. they got to see a local view of the city. i remember joe and i were waving to these three guests good-bye and we had a single thought and the thought was this: we're ordinary guys, there's problem not a lot of other ordinary people like us that have a little extra space and need to make extra money. >> and they also have the feeling of pressure of saving a home in a down economy. >> this was now october, 2007, and so it was just entering a poor economy so i remember at one point asking joe, i said, we should build this for real but who's the best engineer you know? >> rose: hello nathan! (laughter) >> joe and i had been roommates
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prior to this. i got know joe that way and a couple things we noticed about each other, one was or work ethic. >> rose: how would you define that? >> well, we had jobs, of course, but we'd come home and stay up late into the night and on the weekends working on person projects and we had a lot of them. the other thing i noticed about joe -- these entrepreneurial projects? >> i was moonlighting, i had hobby projects entrepreneurial in nature. it will second thing i noticed about joe was he was incredibly creative in creating wonderful physical products very well designed, meanwhile he noticed to me that i could take things and concepts and make them come to life online. we realized those are complimentary skills. it would be great if we got together and did something. so when the guys came to me and told me about this experience we're like we have to do this. >> rose: what's your skill, brian? what do you bring to this? wfrjts well, in the very beginning joe and i would co-design the product and the web site but at some point you have to transition from building a product to building a company
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that builds the product. so i started realizing in the beginning that i had to be a jack of all trades. somebody that could create the vision for the company and joe and i will meet weekly, figure without the company is going, articulate an overall strategy and just attract the best people in the world. we stay best people of our generation. >> rose: and paul graham comes in and is involved at one what stage in >> so basically what ends up happening -- the. >> rose: he's a great guy. >> amazing, our first investor. so we built this web site, launched in 2007, we thought that was it, come back, start building it. we build the next version of airbnb, the problem was in the summer of 2008 the economy crashes andxd no investors wantd to invest in this project. it emed like a crazy idea at the time. and we were literally broke, joe and i were so broke that -- you know those binders that you put baseball cards in them? we put credit cards in those. so we were funding the company off of credit cards. >> for an entire year we went
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without any income and we had expenses in san francisco. >> rose: and we started selling collectible -- because we provided housing for the democratic and republican national conventions so we thought we'd give them breakfast so we designed obama os which is basically breakfast cereal and then we ended up doing these crazy things and i remember at some point realizing where in facebook is ms. selling syria? so january, 2009, we had been working on this for over a year, crazy, tired. and we go to paul graham and paul graham gives us a couple pieces of advice that changed our business forever. the first thing he said to us was, he said brian, it's better to have 100 people that love you than a million people that just sort of like you. find 100 people that love you. and i think that's the challenge most supreme when they try to
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start businesses is they imagine intellectually finding how many of these million people love my product but almost all great products in history start with a core base of people and the good news is you can do things that do not scale. so you can start with just a few people and do things that large companies can't do. and so joe and i started going to new york and joe and i literally went door to door meeting every one of our hosts and we basically -- i like to say when you bought an iphone steve jobs didn't sleep on your couch but we did. >> rose: all the people that were engaged in renting their homes here in new york you'd go see every one of them? >> yes. and when we visited them we'd get new insights. >> rose: like? >> well, we'd hear all sorts of things that people desired to share their space on a service like ours, some things like simple payment system. an easy-to-use calendar, support for mobile devices. and so we would gather this feedback-- which was really tapping into a traditional industrial design process. >> rose: are most people doing this because they need extra
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cash or are they doing it because they want to meet people and want to have some kind of interesting experience? >> i think one of the things we used to talk about was we felt like money was the initial hook. it's the reason you might try this for the very first time. but the reason most hosts continue to do it is because of the amazing people they get to meet. the people they get to welcome to their home. >> rose: how would you define the worst incident you've had? >> well, we've had -- so all experiences we've ever had, the reviews are public so you can essentially read them and we had a few homes that -- >> rose: what would they do? >> basically trashing homes would probably be the worst thing that's happened. >> rose: trashing the homes? some stealingcationly. >> that was primarily trashing the home and that -- this happened in 2007 we had a couple reports of this and this was the moment we realized when you a build product you build the minimum product you need and you get feedback like, okay, there's some problems and the first one is it's hard to get paid so we built a payment system.
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in 2011 there was a home that was damaged and we realized we needed to have essentially a product like an insurance product and we came out the airbnb guarantee which is a million-dollar guarantee for every home on our site and it acts like insurance. and that was how it happened so we try to give that peace of mind >> so you build this thing on trust. and what do you need to do in order to make sure you yes qlat trust? >> there's a couple basic things that the system provides. one is we handle the payments. so the guest comes to the site, they see something they like and they want to book it, the enter their credit card, airbnb takes that money and holds it until after the guest arrives. that way if the guest needs to cancel all they have to do is call our 24/7 customer support line and get the money back. so that gives great peace of mind for the guests. now, the host knows that they have to deliver upon their promise, what they described in their profile in order to get paid and so the incentives are aligned. they know that they have to
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uphold the reputation if they want the payout. and so that aligning of incentives is very powerful. after each reservation both the guests and the hosts review each other. so before you stay at a property you'll see most of our propertys have dozens and dozens of reviews by people who stayed there. it's not possible to just invite a friend to leave a review. these are people who paid and stayed. >> rose: this is an idea that could have only happened after nation book because facebook introduce it had idea of sharing. >> you have to understand the context of the internet and where we are in the life cycle of the internet right now to make airbnb possible. because if you go back ten plus years, trust transaction, being able to put your credit card into the e-commerce site. i remember my mom having an issues with purchasing something online so it took the maturation of the internet to get to the point where people are comfortable now transitioning back offline. so we spent the last decade or so creating all these online connections through sites like facebook. >> and this, of course, activity
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used to happen like 100 years ago. the way it happened was communities where small. when i used the word "community" to my mom she thought of her neighborhood. and her neighborhood growing up people knew each other and trusted each other. and what!.appened was as the world grew as as tom frieden says, flattened and we all got connected without reputation you couldn't trust anybody. but now everyone has a phone in their pocket and everyone can have a reputation. people can be like companies, they can have a reputation. >> rose: where does this go? you now have traction. where does it go? >> i think that it's going to continue to grow because i think what ended up happening is we've created an entirely new category of travel turns out there was an untapped need of people that wanted to travel to cities like new york city for example or cities all over the world, they couldn't afford to go to these cities and also the other thing we're noticing is people are now starting to come to cities for a long time. the average booking an airbnb is
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close to a week right now. so we think it will continue to grow city by city. it's growing quickly in europe and asia is the next area we're seeing a lot of growth. >> rose: where does the promotion come from? is it satisfied customers? is it what? >> it's almost entirely satisfied customers. >> people come back from their vacation and talk about their vacation, inevitably airbnb comes up and because of these experiences-- all of which you can read on the web site in form of reviews-- this word of mouth happens. >> rose: and the other thing that's interesting -- >> rose: if he want to get to airbnb they go to your web site in >> or mobile yap. and the other thing that's really interesting is we're a unique marketplace. you saw this with ebay. ebay there was an interesting phenomena where buyers became sellers. you buy something and then you start selling. they call that network effects. on airbnb a lot of people start as travelers. they may travel to paris, they go back to their city and become hosts. so it has a way of spreading by city.
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>> rose: >> you have to take into context the types of experiences people are having to promote a new type of travel and a new type of story to share when you come home. for example, in paris, we just had an apartment listed that used to be pablo picasso's apartment in paris. we have a number of castles and tree houses and boats and villas. >> rose: villas? >> we have 1400 boats which is seven times the size of the spanish armada and 9,000 people stayed in the boat and a week ago i stayed on the oldest street in philadelphia in airbnb. i staired in this three floor air airbnb and there were literally -- i walked outside and there were tourists taking photographs of the house and me walking out of the house. and, of course, they probably for the same price were staying at some very uninspiring space but i got to stay in this beautiful home. >> rose: when you look at the global growth, do you expect to grow more around the world than the united states? >> as a percentage of the global
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travel market the u.s. is a minority so most of our new growth will come from asia but we'll continue to grow everywhere. >> already the vast majority of our business is outside the united states. >> talk about the sharing economy and what that means. >> i think sharing economy is one of the most important economic movements that happens since the industrial revolution and the reason why is i think the industrial revolution meant centralized production, a few people making lots of things for many people and the reason why was trust. you could trust this company to have this label on this brand to make something and that will still exist. but now ordinary people can have trust. they can make things as well so we're seeing this world it's decentralized production where an ordinary person -- k now block, they can have a voice online, they can now create their own industries offline. an ordinary xern produce many things and we see that with food. people want to go back to farmers' markets and so there's a lot of service-based economies where ordinary people can
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empower themselves to crate an economic future for themselves and i think this is one of the huge opportunities for our countries to create new jobs. new jobs don't necessarily to come from current industries, they can from new industries. >> to build on that. the sharing economy, simply put, matching someone who has something with someone who wants that. and we can do that faster than we've ever seen before. sy just cameñr back from -- >> rose: it worked, didn't it? >> we can do it through mobile and the internet and connections. i was just in seoul recently and i had a chance to see what's happening there from a city infrastructure level and seoul -- the city of seoul is one of the most densely populated cities in the planet. they are implementing the principles of the sharing economy at both a policy and infrastructure level because they realize that they can only build up so much. they have to make better use of the resources they already have. is that's the basis of the sharing economy. >> rose: here's what tom fried
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said in the "new york times." "airbnb has spawned its own ecosystem, people who will coordinate key exchanges, photograph rooms for rent and through the ride sharing business lift turn their cars into taxis to drive you around. it used to be corporations and brands had all the trust but now a total stranger can be trusted like a company and provide the services of a companyñr and once you unlock that idea it is so much bigger than homes. there is a whole generation of people that don't want everything mass produced. they want things that are unique and personal." >> that's exactly right. i think this is where the world is starting to move towards, unique and personal. >> particularly relevant in this economy when you have so many people unemployed-- especially in europe. and the traditional kind of more rigid employment doesn't allow absorption of these people but people are empowered to sell their service -- >> >> countries under 30 is like
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50%. so they can participate in the economy. >> rose: mobile devices are what as an instrument of change for you? >> they're huge. they allow our hosts to have realtime inventory. one of the huge frictions historically has been if i wanted to get something like a home i have to hope that person is available and gets back to me. then i have to wait for somebody to get home to their laptop they would be really slow. so mobile allows communication to be fast. it removes friction and allows transactions to happen very quickly. >> rose: our models are companies like disney and nike and apple, companies that have outlived the founders who started with them. if we are to be successful that is a type of company we would create." so blue sky this in terms of where -- on the edge of what you think might be possible but it still is within your sight. >> i think we have the ability to introduce a new economic model. i think we have a way for people to get control back in their lives by being more resourceful.
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i heard a stat that if the rate of consumption from the last hundred years continues by 2100 we'll need 2.3 planets to sustain ourselves. so something has to change. >> rose: this reminds me of jeff bezos who basically said he was looking for what he wanted to do and all of a sudden he saw how the internet was growing, what the percentage of the rate -- and he said that's good to be a winning business to figure out how to do something that you sell over the internet because of the explosive growth of the internet." that idea came before he thought of books. it was the idea of how bigñvq opportunity was to use this system. >> the opportunity is huge. i think in some way it is genie is out of the bottle. people know they can connect with our people and get these experiences and with us, airbnb, we're starting to think about -- we don't think of ourselves in the business of houses, we are in the business of creating meaningful experience. >> rose: congratulations.
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nice to see you guys again. >> thank you. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: tzipi livni is israel's minister of justice and the former foreign minister. she joined me for a conversation last week at the clinton global initiative. everybody's talking about iran. president of efrp is coming here will address the united nations general assembly, the president has referenced what he might do and have senator john kerry pursue the negotiations toward some kind of an agreement. what is the message of the israeli government to america and to iran about the possibilities of these negotiations that may happen which have not happened yet? >> excuse me for saying this at president beginning of this conversation but israel needs to be quite sensitive because every message coming from israel--
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whether we send this message or not-- is being exploited and abused in order to say that the united states is doing something not for the interest of the united states but for the interest of israel and we don't want this to happen. but it is clear that when he is killing his own people, children this is something that the world consider not be for. it's not an israeli problem, it's not even a regional problem. this is something that the role of the united states is crucially important. and iran tried to pursuing nuclear weapons is also something the world cannot afford and i was glad to hear that president obama just said these this in the united nations that he continues in his efforts to prevent iran from having a nuclear weapon. so there the end the test is
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what's going to be the result of all these talks right now. hopefully the chemical weapons would be taken out of syria and iran would not have a nuclear weapon so this is something that helps everybody in the region. it's something that changed entirely the region. we need it, we hope that this is something that would happen. we cannot afford just talks for talks or trying to appease those that are going abuse power. and i hope -- and i know that this is especially not the intention of the united states and i hope that the outcome will be such that this horrific attacks in syria. >> rose: do you believe that -- let's stick with syria before how these effects might have affected iran, might have affected the united states and
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israel. do you believe that it's possible to get this kind of agreement because so far you have had the syrian government step forward and provide a list as they were required. do you believe that this will work, can work, likely to work? >> as long as syria knows and assad knows that the united states is willing to use military force. the fact that he accepted -- was responsive about this idea of this conventiontor idea of taking the weapon out of syria was because it was quite before -- his impression was that the united states can take military force and this is something important to achieve something peaceful sometimes you need to use -- not to use force but to be willing. >> rose: do you believe that the
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syrians are now open to this kind of negotiations because the threat of force was there? >> yes, yes. >> rose: here is what ehud olmert, former prime minister said to me in a recent interview and we talked about the handling of this by the president and the response in israel or in iran and he said "i think that what happened in the last few weeks weakened the american positioning and even the positioning around the world. of course, in israel leading out to iran is weakened dramatically those who argue that we israelis and some people at the high top office holding these positions that we israeli do not have to worry because? f something serious happens the americans will commit themselves publicly not to let iran turn nuclear." so the question i think comes out of that has anything that has happened so far caused you as a prominent israeli official to question america's commitment to stop iranian nuclear development?
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>> i would not question america's determination and the fact that israel stands for israel's secury. this is something that president obama said today in the united nations but this is something clear to every israeli leader but speaking frankly i can understand why hearing aid barack said so because for a few days it was there -- the misunderstanding was going to be next. i mean, we watched the british parliament voting against military action and then we didn't know what was going to be the next step here but frankly, now, if i need to choose between options, the option of not having a nuclear weapon in iran or the option of not having chemical weapons in syria is better than just having a
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strike. it's two different goals. the goal of the strike was to send a message to assad, listen, you crossed the red line, this is something the united states and the free world would never accept and this is our punishment, deterrence, never do it again. if the outcome is hopefully that the chemical weapons will be taken out without use of force it's good. but i don't know yet. so we will judge this, i think in a few months knowing whether it is working but the idea of using also the threat of using force against assad and against iran is very important. >> do that you believe the sanctions are hurting the iranian government so much so that it has decided that it has to do something and that it is entering into these negotiations that might happen, these discussions that may lead to negotiations, that may lead to
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an agreement? >> everything needs to be test it's clear that the sanctions affect not only the iranian government but the iranian people now we have a new president there the appearance is more welcoming. >> rose: do you think this is real? >> it needs to be tested. i hope it's real but i'm not naive enough to think now that it's real. they need to perform and not just to explain and not just to speak or not just to negotiate with the western world or the united states. there are certain things that they need to do in order to provide us the truth that they are serious and now they are not there yet. we are just at the beginning of this and as i said before, as long as they nina all the options are on the table that negotiations are not going to be
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place -- replace or are not going to be something that changes the determination of the united states from stopping from stopping iran from having the nuclear weapon and sometimes we live in the world of perceptions and images and being strong or weak or determined or not. it's not whether you are but the way you speak about it, the way you show your intentions. it is a tough neighborhood. (laughter) and sometimes they need to understand that they cannot just fool the world and this needs to be tested. >> rose: john kerry have been very busy. there's syria, there's iran and then there is israeli/palestinian initiative that he made. with some incredulousness from people who said it's been tried, it's been tried, it's been
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tried. you've set an impossible deadline. you know something about those notions. do you think it's possible? >> i'm the chief negotiator on behalf of the state of israel so i know something about notion. (laughter) unfortunately, i cannot share this with you or with the audience. >> rose: because the secretary asked you not to? >> asked me not to do it and we highly respect his efforts. basically i believe that the fact that we have negotiations now is due to his determination and enthusiasm when everybody questioned him. >> i know, i said people were incredulous it might happen. >> and i said you know something i believe that we need to do it not for the sake of the united states, not even for the sake of -- not because secretary kerry asked us to do so but because this is in israeli interest and i believe this is also a palestinian interest so let's do it. we cannot give up not only the
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idea of peace but to conflate it into a complete agreement that ends the conflict once and for all. this is the reason for me to be in politics. i left a few months, i decided to come back, i joined this go ligs in order to do so and this is what i'll do in the next few months. >> rose: i know you can't talk about it. however -- (laughter) is it so new and so different that those of us would follow this kind of thing would be surprised about the dimensions of what might be on the table? >> no, i mean we are not going -- we are not going to reinvent the wheel. we are not going -- it's the same old conflict. it's the same old core issues that we need deal with. we decided that all the coalitions would be on the table and we are not trying to avoid one or two of the coalition. >> but is it an effort to find one comprehensive agreement
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rather than deal with it one by one. all of the issues, whether it's borders or right of return or jerusalem. >> we decided that we need to deal with the coalitions because there are tradeoffs within the issues and between the issues and the palestinians agreed that we need to reach a point in which we use these tradeoffs. for example, just as an idea, the palestinians made some very -- end of conflict meaning they know where their borders are some their interests is to negotiate borders. not the other issues. we should know what's going to happen on the other side of the border since we left gaza strip, we got that in return. we need to know that this is the end of conflict so if each state gives answer to the national aspirations of the jewish people
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and the palestinian state for the palestinians. so refugees -- the answer for refugees is not within israel. so all this a different issues are on the table basically -- and we need to address everything so of course we have one where the idea is not to avoid but to have -- to have progress in different issues then the leaders need to make the biggest decision ever. >> rose: and you think prime minister netanyahu is prepared to do that? >> i answer entered the coalition after i heard discussions and we had hours and hours of talks and discussions and meetings about what needs to be -- now to negotiate, how the do it. and kerry was questioned, i was questioned when i entered this
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coalition and they told me listen, you cannot trust him, you were the first one to criticize him for doing nothing so do that you believe things change? so basically we have negotiations now and as i said about everything needs to be tested. >> rose: what did he promise you in getting you to join the government as interior minister that made you believe he was serious about finding -- >> it's not about promise, it's about an understanding that this is the in the interest of israel. it doesn't mean every deal would be accepted but as far as these t israeli interesting are being preserved in the negotiations and start of the deal let's -- i feel that my role, my job is make it possible for him to make the decision in the end and to
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promote or to have the israeli interest in the negotiations room so we have a package because i believe that in the end when you deal with just one or two issues it's like every part of a jigsaw without having the full picture when you have the full picture israel can come to its own people and say "listen, we gave something which is very important for us, very senseive the but yet we got something in return." and this is the end of conflict >> do you think settlements are helpful? >> settlements the answer is no. >> rose: why do them? >> this is the short answer. but in the long answer is that settlements used to be part of another region that was part of my parents' vision st. one big jewish democratic state so the idea was that we can live
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happily ever after with the palestinians in one state (inaudible) we cannot live happily ever after in one state with the palestinians, we need to separate. >> that brings the so-called democratic -- >> but so just one sentence if i may, it is not important anymore what each and every one of you thinks about settlements. activity whether it is part of the jewish people coming to the homeland of the fore fathers or whether this is an historical stupid mistake against international law. the fact is that most of the settlers, the vast majority of them are living in what we called block settlements which is that is very close to the lines that were in '67 and takes only a few percentage of the west bank so it's not affecting their possibility and feasibility to create a viable palestinian state and i wish the
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focus -- >> rose: but it continues. i mean, you know, people question most recently the settlements in jerusalem. >> yes, okay. >> rose: and you're looking for things on the ground that will prove good faith. >> okay. you ask this in the most nice manner. (laughter) the well, it's not a secret that the israeli government a coalition. i'm not the only party in the government. and there are still in israel a minority, though, but they're being represented in this government that still believes in greater israeli settlements as part of their vision. >> rose: and they're all until the likud party. >> and part of the likud party and other right wing parties. but before we decided to relaunch the investigation, netanyahu needed to make a choice. what can build, as you said,
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what can build trust between us and the palestinians. and his choice was quite a difficult one. the choice was not to free settlements but the choice was to release terrorists that killed israeliñi citizens before the oslo agreement. and i'm sure that you know that now in israel the politicians and people are calling netanyahu not to release prisoners because we have two soldiers who were killed in the last few days by palestinians so he made another decision in order to create trust between him a and abu mazen knowing this is something really important for abu mazen and what i would like that ask-- and this is what i asked the other world and the sber national community-- i mean, those of you believing that settlements doesn't help it's against this, it's against international law, we have a few months ahead.
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if you focus on some the activities we will miss the opportunity to focus on the real border of palestine, on the state of -- future state of palestine and the state of israel. i don't want these background noises to enter the negotiations as this is something that i say to israelis asking to stop negotiations because of terror attacks and the palestinians saying to abu mazen stop negotiating because of some settlements. it's not going to change the borders, what we are doing in the next few months so let's focus on the negotiations itself on the future boarder from israeli security and even if you are not in love with settlement activities this is not a major topic these days. >> rose: thank you. tzipi livni. (applause) thank you.
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captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
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>> coming up next on "voces"... >> if we try to find a connection between lucha libre and ritual masks, there are parallels. >> it's good guy, bad guy. it's like opening the most wild comic book and the panels become the ring. the characters come to life. and sit back and enjoy.
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>> this series has been made possible by... >> and by... >> is it sport? is it theater? is it circus? yes. it's all of those. and it's none of those. >> lucha libre is a poor man's theater. el teatro de los pobres. >> it is just so exciting to go out to the match and immerse yourself in the madness of that
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scene. the sights and the smells and the spectacle and the teatro of lucha libre are intoxicating. >> it is a friday night at arena mexico, lucha libre's historic downtown venue. from all over mexico city, excited fans come to participate in this deeply mexican spectacle. with its mysterious masked wrestlers and a popularity that has at times rivaled soccer, lucha libre, mexico's unique variation on professional wrestling, has become a distinct aspect of the country's complex cultural identity. this is an exploration of lucha libre and a look at 3 masked wrestlers whose lives and whose own identities were transformed by it.
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>> if you let yourself go with it, it's like entering another world. i mean, you're sitting there. you're in this arena and at first everybody's kind of talking amongst themselves. everybody's ordering beers or eating or gossiping. then all of a sudden, these two
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guys appear and they're dressed like superheroes. you know, they have the masks. they have the capes and it's just beautifully colorful. and all of a sudden, it starts.

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